Maybe a little premature, since the d70 has yet to hit the market. At dpreview there has already been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of these cameras. I'll probably get one of these this spring (even though a housing will have to wait). Before I can make a decision I need to know what the UW implications are. I'll be buying in Japan, where the 300d is around 110 kYen with kit lens, and the d70 should be around 140 kYen with kit lens.

The 300d has already produced some stunning UW shots, as proven by several posters on this forum. It's a bit cheaper than the d70, but has been electronically crippled, so it has some limitations regarding amongst other things AF modes if I have understood it correctly. What I do not know is how these limitations affect UW use. But it will do TTL with the Aquatica housing, which to an inexperienced photographer like myself sounds great. But I really can't know how important this is.

The d70 costs a bit more but has a better kit lens (at least that's what everyone is assuming). The choices for WA lenses are better, eg the 10.5 dx lens. Burst mode is better, which should be useful when shooting with no flash, for instance trying to shoot fast moving marine mammals (I was in Norway in October swimming with Orcas, and with only 10 seconds with them within sight at a time, with the shutter lag of the 4040 thats about 3 shots). But TTL is not possible with the d70, so an option there would be to house a Nikon flash. How powerful is one of those flashes compared to UW ones? Is it only enough for macro shots? And how much are the flash housings roughly? There something called flash sync speed, which I don't understand, and apparantly this is better on the d70. Practical consequences?

At the dpreview forums there's been a lot of childish Canon vs Nikon arguments leading nowhere, but I think that is unlikely to happen here since people here aren't into this because of identification with a logo. In a way I realize I can't go wrong with either of these, but I'd still like to make an informed decision based on pros and cons. And I believe I'm not the only one trying to decide between these two cameras.

Any input appreciated!

I am leaning towards the D70. Here is an chart that you might find helpful:

http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/NikonD70_page5.shtml

I don't think that you will go wrong with either system. Since Canon & Nikon lenses are not interchangeable, you are gambling on which line to stake your future in (ie: if you go with Canon / Nikon now, you will already have the lenses so future upgrades will be limited to Canon products....or you will have to buy all new lenses).

I am putting my money on Nikon (which will also fit Fuji).

TTL is nice for macro....but not a necessity in my opinion.

HTH,
David

I'm curious about the D70's kit lens as it seems pretty slow. You might be better off buying the body and just getting a 50mm 1/8 as your prime. Would be cheaper as well.

Pete

The 17 - 70 F 3.5 might be slow based on film experience but a 50MM is not wide enough for even everyday land use. Remember you have to multiply the lens focal lenghth by 1.5 to get the functional focal length for your digital body. A 50 becomes a 75.

Back to the original question for UW use I would go witht he Nikon for the wide angle lens offerings that are currently available. 10.5 and the 12 - 24.

I think most people would find the 15mm FE or 16mm FE more useful that the 10.5mm. A 180 degree fisheye is not a general purpose lens.

And if one were to go with the 300d + kit lens and one more lens, would the other lens be a macro or a WA? In other words, is the 17-55, although obviously inferior to a dedicated lens, better as a macro or as a WA?

Solely based on focal length, I'd tend towards a macro lens, either the 50mm or the 100mm. If you only have 2 lenses, I'd probably get the 100mm. My active set of lenses for UW use at this point is the Canon 17-40L, which I used 80% of the time last week in Cozumel, the 100mm macro (unfortunately not a lot of opportunity to use it last week, but I love the lens), and my 28-135 (which due to the port setup really only got used at about 28-80). Choosing 2, I'd go with the 17-40L and the 100mm.

True, but I know quite a few folks using the 50 or the 85 as their prime land lens. Of course, they're more concerned with street portraits than WA so that makes sense.

As far as uw goes, I would also opt to go the nikon route just for the 12-24 alone.

The Nikon SB800 and older SB's take 4 AA batteries, so they are about as powerful as a DS50 or a Sea and Sea YS90

Hope that helps,
James Wiseman

But there's a Sigma 12-24 for Canon, right?

I can't afford those two, but I guess what you're saying is the kit lens + a 100 mm macro would be your recommendation?

I am not betting on the kit lens being desireable underwater. I would get it for topside. Underwater (if limited to 2 lenses) I would get the Sigma 15mm FE & the Nikon 60mm.

Solely my opinion (based on alot of research & question)!

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. What I was saying is that if I had to choose from my lenses only 2, those are the 2 I'd choose.

Hi Paul,

If you plan to buy the D70 or the Canon and not planning to house it for good while, I would lean towards a wide to medium zoom and a medium to long zoom. Both of these will give you everything you need topside.
Regarding what macro you'll require; well, you are welcome to use one of my set-ups to get the feel of the 60 & 105, as well as the w/a.

That would mean the kit lens plus something like a xx-300mm for topside? Regardless of camera? In light of your offer, I'd better go with the Nikon, in case I really like one of your Nikon lenses.

Good plan. :-)

All joking aside, let's say you are starting out from scratch and don't own any lenses, housing, ports, etc.

Start by looking at available housings - what will be available for each camera. Here's what we know and what I assume (in parens)

Nikon:

Aquatica
Ikelite
Nexus
(Subal)
(UK Germany)
(Jonah)

Canon 300d:

Aquatica
Ikelite
(Subal)
(UK Germany)
(Jonah)

Nexus doesn't do Canon housings.

OK, so the housing choices are slightly fewer for the Canon but not much diff.

Now on to camera body features:

Nikon has all the features of the 300D PLUS:

AF/AE lock w/o having to use the DOF preview button (important at f22)
MSC switch
Flash modes (rear, slow rear, etc)


Now on to lenses, Nikon has all of the same lenses as Canon (except about 20% higher price) PLUS:

12-24DX
70-180 Macro Zoom
10.5DX fisheye
60mm Micro goes 1:1

Feel free to correct me on any of this if I'm wrong. I've never done this comparison before, but I think it's overdue. Maybe material for an article.

Cheers
James Wiseman

All 300D housing solutions can be found here:
http://www.digideep.com/product.php?pType=...a&mID=7&pID=639

Housing announcements for the D70 will be tracked here:
http://www.digideep.com/product.php?pType=...&mID=25&pID=769

So if your trip is near and you do not own any lenses
or ports yet, the 300D is currently a sure thing.

Andi

Andi - might want to fix the digideep A300 listing, shows a 30 mt/ 100 ft rating, accdg to Aquatica's site, it's 300 feet....

Chris

I see everyone has listed the actual features of each camera in the comparison but no discussion of noise and sensors. I am assuming that this is due to the D70 being brand new.

I know it has been discussed with regards to the D100. I think you need to review these factors also in your decision. A wise man once told me that Canon will come out with the lenses you feel are currently missing so I would disregard that factor. (As mentioned Sigma already has the 12-24 for the Canon)

So Todd, when are these mythical lenses coming out? :-) I'm not the "wise man" you're referring to I hope. I've been called wise*** as the best of times...:-)

If Canon releases 1.6x crop lenses, the won't work with the 1.3x crop cameras that Canon makes. Not sure if that's a factor or not as Canon might regard "digital" lenses as consumer products.

But if they do, that's a different stance than Nikon has taken. Nikon's digital lenses are supposed to be "pro" quality.

Cheers
James

So lenses might or might not be an issue. I think that what Craig said makes sense, that a 14-16 mm fisheye will be enough for most people. What about that thing I don't understand, the flash sync speed? What will it do for me UW? (compare: what have you done for me lately)

Burst speed I think might be useful for non-strobe shooting, but will hardly be of importance otherwise. Also, I'd really like to hear from the handful of current 300d users as to what extent the electronic crippling of the 300d is a hindrance UW.

Noise performance is also of significance to me, as I will try to shoot in low light conditions with no strobe. I know the 300d produces some excellent pictures at iso1600. Is there a reason to believe the d70 won't be as good?

I really like the way this thread is turning out, and I'm getting some useful information. The confusion, however, has not gone away. Which I guess is normally the case - more knowledge; more confusion. I judge housing options to be roughly equal, so it still comes down to TTL and lower price vs. extra features and (possibly) more lens choices. The difficulty lies in evaluating what these factors will mean to me.



That would be great, James!

No, that was "wise man" not Wiseman. Man that VIP is going to your head.

Not much use underwater. If you are shooting fast moving subjects beyond strobe distance, then you need a faster shutter speed to eliminate motion blur. The only problem I've had is sea lions zipping around in the background.



Probably not. I think the image quality and noise performance will be close enough that you wouldn't much notice.

The D70 has some more features. The price difference is $100.

For underwater use, the Nikon offers better/more lens choices.

Can someone expand on this? I'm going through the same process as Paste is (this thread has been amazingly helpfull!). I think that the two are pretty comparable cameras and the more important question for people just starting out down the SLR path is which lense system to commit to.

I've looked for a broad comparison of the lenses between Canon and Nikon but can't find anything other than specific lenses. I'm guessing that the UW preference for Nikon is because of the WA lenses? How about topside? (another article topic perhaps?!?)

See James's reply above:


Canon has all the same lenses except:

12-24DX
70-180 Macro Zoom
10.5DX fisheye
60mm Micro goes 1:1

These are all pretty useful lenses from what I have read. In fact they are the top 4 on my list to get (probably long term).

The 60 mm macro will probably be my first purchase. I think it will be easier to learn to get great photos at macro than any other style. I think it will be easier to control strobes and focus on stationary subjects like coral and slugs before I move on to more challanging and mobile critters. I probably will have more success close up with strobe effectiveness and less water. This is also a fairly inexpensive lens at around $3-400.

I love WA the best but never quite know what I will want to shoot on a dive. The 12-24 would be an excellent way to get that flexability. Sigma also makes a comparable 12-24 lens for both Canon and Nikon but there is some doubt as to weather it will fit in the Ikelite port. I have read that it does not. Anyone know?

The 10.5 looks like an awesome WA lens too especially for very large subjects. I've see it give excellent results especially with the image correction software. It is reasonably priced and would be a blast. It doesn't bother me that it can't be used for film. I'll never go back. But I'm a bit worried that it won't be useful if they come out with full sized sensors in their lower priced dSLRs soon and it won't be useable.

The 70-180 macro would be a great addition if I get really good at macro and want to take the really small stuff. I also like the ability to zoom and get exactly what I want in the frame. This will probably be my last lens to buy on the list though.

I also like the flexability option of switching body manufacturers next time around. Both Kodak and Fugi use the nikon system. So the system will be a good one to stick with.

C'mon and sell me one already! Before I change my mind--again.

That pretty much sums it up, thanks!

I think it very unlikely that Nikon and Fuji "consumer" DSLR's will move away from the 1.5x DX sensor format.

Cheers
James

Nikon lenses I have/use underwater:

12-24mm
16mm fisheye
17-35mm (my favorite still)
60mm macro
105mm macro
200mm macro

Others used, but not by me, at least not yet:

10.5mm fisheye
18-36mm (cheaper alternative to the 17-35mm)
70-180mm macro

Topside, some would say Canon has an advantage with a better selection of L and IS glass. I would agree with them. Nikon has been catching up, but Canon still has an edge.

The underwater world tends to favor very wide angle and macro.

I'm pretty familiar with the commonly used Nikon lenses...What do the Canon folks do? Reading this thread makes it sound like there's nothing usefull in the Canon lineup, but I know there are plenty of people using Canon glass UW. Are they really just making do with an inferior selection?

(Paste - If this is deviating from the intention of your original post too much, let me know and I'll start a dedicated thread)

luminary - this is certainly one of the things I want to know; the UW useability of Canon lenses. No need for a new thread.

Underwater, I mostly use either the Canon 100 mm macro or the Sigma 50 mm macro (on a 10D) since the Sigma goes 1:1. As for wide angle, I use the 16-35 L glass and it is quite spectacular. I haven't gone to the Sigma 12-24 but for 95% of what I want one of the three lenses above serves well. I like the 50 mm a lot since it is good for 1:1 macro and for fish portraits, the 100 mm macro is good for really tiny stuff.

Canon 17-40 L is an AWESOME lens underwater. It's not really wide, but it spent a ton of time on my camera on my last trip. Substitute the 16-35L here as well, it's comparable. The Canon 100mm macro is also pretty darn good, very sharp, reasonably good AF, I just haven't had enough time to use it yet. I also managed to get a Canon 28-135IS housed, although the useable range was limited to 28-80mm. Nice lens though. I may put some more effort into getting it to work through the full range. I own other lenses, but these are the primary one's I use UW.

My next lens for UW use will likely be a Canon 15mm fisheye. I might try to get a Sigma 12-24 as well, but that's a ways out really.

I strongly disagree with this. Eliminating motion blur is only one function of a faster shutter. The shutter speed determines the ratio of natural light to strobe light since the strobe exposure is independent of it. That's an important degree of freedom. Increasing the flash sync speed increases your exposure range and can make a big difference on shots with bright sunny background. IMHO, it is the most important difference between the D100 and the D70.

Canon glass I've used underwater so far:

17-40L - I've been really pleased with this lens. I think it's a great all-round underwater lens. I've used this about 85% of the time.

Tamron 90mm macro - does 1:1, is quite cheap and optically brilliant. AF is crap. I think I'd buy the Canon 100mm though for underwater use.

I think a 12-24 that can be easily housed would be the main thing on my canon wish list - I haven't heard of anyone actually using the fat sigma 12-24 underwater yet.

Do you really need a 10.5 fisheye? I can live without it, it wouldn't determine my choice of system.

I'm tending towards downgrading to a 300D for underwater use due to the availability of cheapish housings and the tantalising posibility of TTL strobe. I'd go the 1DMkII if someone would build an affordable housing and promise me eTTL2 support!

Hejsan Paste,

I bought the 300d with the intention of using the Sigma 12-24mm housed in Ikelite. (Ikelite because of their supposedly superior service, as opposed to Aquatica, which some of my buddies have had trouble with, and also because of the availability of housing right now). However, I only just was made aware that Ike does not at least yet have ports that will house the sigma 12-24mm. So if the 12-24 lens is really important to you, the you'll be better off with the Nikon... but you willhave to wait for the housing a while. Topside, I am really happy with the dREBEL. I find it a bit sad that it gets the "Cheap treat" because it is a truly great camera. The proof is in the pics, not in the tag. Another thing to keep in mind is that soon we will look back at the 6.3 m cameras and wonder why we paid all this $$$... All the best from a former vasteras roedeers fan...

Only in Asia...:-)

I agree the D-Rebel takes EXCELLENT photos - as do the photographers I know here who use it.

Cheers
James

What are the odds? A Vasteras Roedeers fan at a UW photo forum!!!

I must say right now I'm leaning towards the 300d, even though I might change my mind tomorrow. The TTL is mighty tempting, especially since I don't get to dive very often. Of course, I could do an insane amount of pool diving taking pictures of rubber ducks and dead sea shells on the pool floor, or aim to master the art of shooting perch and pike in <1m viz...

I just might end up flipping a coin to decide!

So because Ike does not house the 12-24 you suggest that they get a completely different camera?

I have never had anything but great Aquatica service. Actually outstanding service. Now I live in Canada where they are located so I am unsure if that has part to do with it. If you like the 300D then either wait for Ike or look at the Aquatica again. I was told it will fit the housing and ports they have and judging by the photos they should be out and ready to go very soon.

You could also check digideep for listings of other housings available. I believe the UK is out.

I've got to agree with Todd, I wouldn't switch camera systems simply because one housing manufacturer doesn't make a housing for a given lens. Conventional UW wisdom says look at the available housings for a camera before buying it, but the 300d looks to be one of the better supported bodies out there, especially as compared to other Canon's like the D60 and 10D.

In the case of the Ikelite housing, it's not likely that you will be able to house the 12-24 in the near future, as increasing the maximum diameter of their ports would be a major retooling effort. Other manufacturers do provide larger diameter ports, although you may need a custom zoom gear to handle the Sigma 12-24 for some period of time.

Just a few thoughts...
Tom

jonah will house the sigma 12-24 for the 10D, so i assume they would do it for their 300D housing as well.
/paul

Nope, I am not saying that at all if you read my post. I am saying to be aware of the fact that drebel+ike is not compatible with the wide 12-24mm. Anyhow, Nikon has a better selection of super wide angle lenses than Canon. Selection of camera and housing is of cousrse dependant on what kind of shooting yo are planning to do.. and for some of us, also... belive it or not... the price of the complete package. The drebel and the ike housing, as well as Sigma lenses are appealing to those of us who want to land withing a certain budget. However, if money is no object whatsoever, the the selection of housing etc is of course wider.

Will find a lens to see if we can get the 12-24mm Sigma done. We can machine ports to accommodate its 3.4" diameter............

ike is fantastic! PAste, maybe we will get your "abborrar' and "gaddor" in a wa shot after all! :wink:

I shoot Canon UW and have used the following lenses:

EF 15mm FE (works great behind a 6" dome...no need for a bigger, more expensive dome) Check out www.naturescapes.net for a shot taken with this lens.

EF 16-35L
EF 28-105 (full zoom range behind a flat port) used in conjunction with Woody Mayhew's push on diopter
EF 50mm F2.5 Macro
Tamron SP90mm F2.8 Macro (I have no issues with AF, much slower than an EF but what lenses aren't when compared to a ring USM?)

Don't feel the need for a 12-24 really as the 15mmFE is wide enough....besides, I'm still holding out for a cheap full frame DSLR from Canon...yeah right!

Stu

I am a full newbie to Digital Underwater photography. However, I have been taking pictures with my Nikonos V for the last 5 years.

99% of my underwater photography is Macro and I use a 35mm with extention tubes with a sub-strobe 50.

I would like to continue to take Macro photography, increase my lens selections, and move into the digital arena.

However, I am confused on a couple of issues.

1. Is the Flash-Sync on digital cameras needed for macro uw photography?
2. Will I be using a strobe or a different type of flash unit with my digital camera?
3. Is TTL needed for digital macro uw photography?

I am leaning towards the Nikon D70, since I already have 2 Nikon SLR (film Cameras) and several lens.

Will the D70 meet the needs of UW MACRO Digital Photography and what kind of flash or stobe unit do you recommend?

Regards,

Jamene

[quote="yahsemtough"]So because Ike does not house the 12-24 you suggest that they get a completely different camera?


Absolutely!!!! I do think that the DX fisheye and 12-24 DX should be major considerations for anyone investing in a dSLR right now. Short of the 1Ds, these F mount lenses are arguably our best options for superwide angle digital. We aren't talking about switching systems here - we are talking about choosing a system for those that don't have much invested in either mount.

A year ago I was shooting my D100 with a 16mm fisheye, the 12-24 is soooo much nicer and the 10.5 is dreamy.

The quality of image capture is very similar between DSLRs, and I feel that we are finally getting beyond megapixels and bits back to picking a system that offers you lenses and accessories that suit your needs best. Since I love super WA photography, that leaves me between the 1Ds, and Nikon's DX format. If your interest is in macro photography and you prefer TTL - the aquatica housing might sway you the other way (although don't you need extensions to increase Canon's macro lenses to 1:1?).

As far as the TTL advantage - remember that this is no feat of Canon. It is equally likely that Nikon's iTTL will be figured out and applied by a housing mfr. Frankly, I would wait to see this in action. Remember how much trouble the early Ike TTL systems had....

Personally, the 1Ds is calling my name - but I have way too much invested to switch systems. I've persuaded 3 different people to purchase the 300D and Ike housing since it came out - at the time it was the best buget system out there. Right now, however, I've changed my tune to the D70.

All cameras have some type of flash sync. Current DSLR have a max sync speed of 1/125 to 1/250. This sync speed will not matter for macro photography. The flash will be the light source for the scene. The duration of the flash is far less than the shutter speed. Changing shutter speed will not effect the exposure.



Strobe



It is not needed, but sure comes in handy. I miss it.



Absolutely. I would recommend any of the following: Ikelite DS125, Sea & Sea YS90DX or INON 220.

While it is physically possible to use your SS50, you will only get a full dump in manual mode, since you cannot use TTL. It is possible to use it as a slaved second strobe.

The SB80DX is quoted as having a guide number of 38m at 100ASA for a 35mm lens. Using the old "divide by about 3" this would give a GN of approximately 12m underwater.

This compares to an SB105 which gives me a GN of about 8 from experience (ie f8 at 1m for a M Full exposure).

So there might be one F stop in it.

One advantage of the SB80DX for macro is that the zoom lens is that the flash head zooms with your lens (if it is a zoom lens) or sets itself to the focal length of the lens you arte using.

The not only increases the effective GN at longer focal lengths, but more usefully for me, it means that when shooting on DTTL I use much less battery power (because flash is not wasted on a wide beam - that isn't needed for macro. I use Energiser Lithiums in the SB80DX and they last for nearly a week of diving. Very impressive.

Alex