While I was kicking around the idea of the 1Ds, reality has set in thanks to some replies on my first post. I will probably settle for the 10D and up grade later if need be. Now the question is what to house it in. Who has used what? I am thinking of either the 16-35 or 17-40 for wide angle, a 24-70 for general purpose (fish), and a 100 macro. Any thoughts on which housing/ port set ups.

I thought you were asking for help rationalizing a 1Ds in your first post? I did my best and blame the others!

If you are now considering the 10D, then why the 10D and not the D100, S2, or 300D? Do you view this camera as primarily an underwater rig or do you value land usage significantly?

I too looked at both the 10D and 1Ds and am now waiting to see what happens in the next few months, but my wife will be getting a 10D for Christmas so I have also been seriously looking at housing options and have come down to the following:
Housing: Subal - several Subal owners have posted very positive experiences with the 10D and this housing.

I considered housing a 1Ds or 1D in a Seacam but the cost was just too much for equipment that I might upgrade in a five or so years. As far as a lens, I plan to go with a 15mm fisheye, just so I can get as close to my subjects as possible while still having a wide angle view. Primarily since I shoot in less than ideal water conditions (California). I would also get a 50mm macro which with the 1.6 crop would be a good start.

Note: "your milage may very" - What is good for me may not be for you...

Keith

I accept some of the blame for your indecision. My arguments - that any of the mentioned cameras would serve you well - apply more to the S2 and D100 than the 10D. The 12-24 and the DX fisheye make the Nikor mount dSLRs much more suitable for uw use than the 1.5X crop canons. Your initial post expressed concern about longevity of your camera system, and at some point you'll likely long for wide angle solutions. If you go with canon, the 1Ds should probably be your choice.

Why have you chosen canon? They make wonderful sensors and cameras, but they have not addressed the wide angle issues in sub $3000 dSLRs, nor do they seem to be headed in that direction. If your decision has been based on the glowing reviews of the 10D image quality, remember that your needs as an uw photographer are different, and ultrawide lenses are essential. In contrast to the S2 and D100, then, I think that the 10D is not currently suitable for ultrawide uw photography. This situation is no different than the nikor mount cameras were in 8 months ago, but the 12-24 and now the fisheye have negated one of the last arguments steering shooters away from digital.

If you are committed to canon, and the 1Ds is within your budget - just do it!

I'm one of the very satisfied owners of the 10D. 2 friends on my recent trip shooting D100's remarked that if they had to start over, they'd get the Canons. Here are my lens recommendations:

CFWA : Sigma or Canon 15mm FE lenses, gives you the equivalent FOV of 17mm. You won't notice the FE effect as there are hardly any straight lines underwater. The 12-24 Nikkor is the equivalent of an 18mm at 12mm due to the reduced FOV of the DSLR sensors.

Medium WA: 16-35 or 17-40. You can get decent medium reef scenics or schooling fish with this lens....I did. This would be a good lens for pelagics.

General Purpose: I used the EF28-105. The near instant focusing speed of USM, the wide zoom range let me get anything from large spotted sweetlips at a cleaning station to full frame nudi shots (highly recommended for use with Woody Mayhew's external diopter) Someone in our group used the Sigma 28-80 Macro with fantastic results.

Macro: The 50mm may be better suited than the 100, with the 100, you may be shooting parts of a fish/nudi rather than the whole animal...but for the elusive pygmy seahorses...hard to beat. Again, your mileage may vary due to what you like to shoot.

As for the Subal C10 housing, I cannot recommend it enough. 2 of us were shooting the C10 over a 2 week period, that was 120 dives and nearly 10K images between us....it was phenomenal.

My 2 cents.

Stu

The 12-24 is not only wide enough for most any shot underwater, but it offers a zoom as well. The fisheye locks you in to the extremely wide perspective. There are shots, wrecks for example, that benefit from a rectilinear lens. All the other lenses mentioned have rough Nikon-mount equivalents. The Sigma 12-24 may be an acceptable option for Canon but its quality has yet to be demonstrated.

I'm sure the Subal 10D is very fine but it is also pricey and Subal offers D100 and S2 models as well. Other manufacturers support the D100 and sometimes the S2 without offering a 10D model, so your housing choices are more limited when you select that system. Aquatica, for example, offers a D100, S2, and soon a 300D housing but no 10D. Seacam offers D100 and S2 but no 10D. Nexus and LMI offer D100 only.

I asked how important land photography is relative to underwater because I believe it's just as important to choose your housing as your body. If land photography is important and you're convinced the 10D is the camera, then work with that. If underwater is the priority, I think you are better off choosing everything together as a system.

Or if your ultimate goal is a 1Ds and the 10d is an intermediate stepping stone, then...

Even knowing what I know now, I'd still go with Canon. Just a personal preference, I like the Canon lineup of lenses better than any other. Yes, as we've determined, housing options for Canon are more limited, no question there.

If you're looking at the 10d, then the Subal is probably the best bet. Or wait and see what Ikelite comes up with. Get three lenses, a 15mm FE, a macro (50mm or 100mm, I choose the 100mm), and the 17-40L.

My opinion on lenses is based on having shot Nikon's fisheye for 4 months (about 60-80 dives) before getting the 12-24. For me, the 12-24 is a tremendous improvement. In addition to the zoom advantage, the lens feels wider than the uncorrected fisheye on the D100. My WA photography has improved more with this lens than any other major addition to my photo kit. And now the fisheye addition - oh boy!!!

Keep in mind that this isn't a brand loyalty issue, and before those lenses came out I'd be indifferent, or even partial to the Canon system (because of their CMOS chips). But Canon's strategy seems to be that if you want true wide angle - buy a 1Ds.

Right now, if you want true wide-angle for Canon, buy a 1Ds or get a Sigma 12-24. I think in February, that's going to change though. My feeling is that they'll announce a comparable lens to the Nikon / Sigma 12-24 for the cropped sensor cameras, which may or may not work on the FF lineup. If they're really going with "APS sized for consumer and Full Frame for Professional", they have to accomodate true wide angle.

I also think that whatever they produce for a 1D replacement will be an interesting proposition for UW use, especially if it's based on the 1D/s chassis and AF system. If I were in the market for anything from a 10d on up, I'd be waiting 2 months to see what they came up with instead of jumping into one or another at this point. Especially if your dive season is over, or at least limited because of the winter months.

What about the rumored 1D replacement do you feel makes interesting as an underwater camera? Do you think it will be most of a 1Ds at a lower price? I've figured it would be like the current PJ cameras, not as much image as you might like and more frame rate than you can use.

I've heard that the Canon APS-specific lenses would be limited to to the bundled 300D lens. In other words, it was a cost saving move. Is that not the case? I think a 12-24DX-style lens would be a big boost for Canon.

I like the 15/16 FE for wide but I like the 12-24 for the zoom. The width of the FE is dependent on how (and if) you debarrelize it.

The addition of a 12-24 style lens would be a huge improvement. I, too, thought that Canon's only 1.5X lenses would be a budget lineup. That makes sense because their goal must be to encourage you to move up camera bodies - 1.5,1.3,1.0; so why make the investment in advanced lens design for its bargain basement.

This doesn't rule out a superwide zoom, but it would probably be designed to work on FF cameras as well, but then that would make it extremely expensive.

Remember that we are only discussing 1/2 of nikon's DX lineup. The fisheye angle of view has been a staple of uw photography for a decade. Personally, I've seriously considered housing a film camera just to use a fisheye lens the way it was meant to be used. The only true fisheye options are the 1Ds and the nikon mount DX fisheye.

In reading this forum and others, I see so much emphasis placed on sensors' resolution and noise. IMO, the modern dSLRs in any given class are more alike than different in this regard. Where they differ greatly, is in the handling, software, lens lineup, and housing support. Make sure to take all these into consideration when making a purchase.

In the original thread m&m suggested that he didn't want to feel pushed into an upgrade quickly - that he'd rather buy the 1Ds up front. The reason I said that the 1Ds was overkill was because he had no need for its file sizes to put together a scrapbook. If the 10D is his second choice, it bears a significant disadvantage in its lens arsenal, and if the superwide lenses never come along - he might want an upgrade. For someone in this situation, an S2 and D100 provide more than adequate files, and give up nothing in lens choices.

Can't wait to see what PMA brings! The 1D replacement should be interesting. Rumors sound too good to be true.

If you take an average of all the BS floating out there about what this rumored replacement might be it ends up fairly interesting. The 3 variables most interesting to me are AF system, sensor size, and MPs.

If it's a replacement for the 1D (1D-r as some have called it), or if it's the "3d" that people talked about, it will have a better AF system, so at a minimum, the 45pt AF system from the 1 series. This is one of the areas I feel that the lower end cams, especially my D60, lack.

The size of the sensor, i.e. FF vs 1.3 vs 1.6 is really up for debate. Based on an article that was posted, Canon's going FF with their Pro cameras. Doesn't mean the next one necessarily, but it's possible. In either case, the 1D-r will have a smaller crop, either 1.3 or FF. Either one gets you closer to wide angle, which is the biggest feature missing for UW use.

Lastly is megapixels. If the 1D-r stays true to purpose as a camera for photojournalists, they don't need to increase the MP count much if at all. I do think they'll go to 6 MP just to out-do Nikon. Some have even talked about a switchable high-res (11 mp?) or high-speed (8-10 fps) sensor that allows the user to choose high-res / low-speed or lower-res / high-speed based on the need. I don't think this will happen yet. The 1D already can arguably make as good large prints as the 10d, supposedly because of the increased pixel size. If the 1D-r has at least 6 MP with a larger sensor, it will make some stunning prints. For my purposes, I'm ok with 6 MP, although I wouldn't turn down more with less noise.


Top it all off and give me all this in a body that already has housings available (1Ds) and I think it's a great contender.

Make sense?

My earlier comments about APS for consumer and FF for professional was based on this article. It also hints at some 'specialized wide angle lenses' for it's APS sized lineup.

My opinion, based on lots of Internet "experts" is that they will produce a 12-24 (or something like it), and that it will probably not work on FF for the reasons Kasey mentioned. Too big, too expensive to cover FF. plus unwanted side effects like CA and moire if you do it on the cheap. They'll probably also add a fisheye. The question is will they make it an EF-s mount that needs the same mirror as the 300D, or will it just be a lens with a smaller image circle so that it can be used on the 10D / D60 / D30?

I agree though Kasey, I can't wait to see what PMA brings. Wouldn't it be funny if Canon didn't announce anything at all?????

Sure! I had read rumors of of 8MP and 8fps but that seems unrealistic. I would prefer higher pixel count provided that you get 2-3fps but that's not consistent with photojournalists' needs.

I agree that 1.3 or FF would be better than 1.6 even at 6MP. I had been assuming that the 1D ahd D1h/D2h were less desirable for underwater but we'll see how interesting the 1D replacement is when it's introduced. It would be great to see it fit in a 1Ds housing.

There are many great points in the responses to the threads I posted.

I am trying to look at this realistically. I am a new baby at this, an amateur. Of course the 1Ds is overkill. Hell, I would almost feel guilty taken pictures with such an instrument.

While I don’t relish the thought of having to upgrade in a couple of years, I still can’t get over the fact the 1Ds would cost me at least 5 to 6 thousand more then another system and, of coarse, there is no guarantee that I will not want to upgrade from that. My wife has already tried to bet me that if I buy it, it would not last past three years. I am smart enough not to take the bet. Bottom line is that the money I can save I can use to upgrade in the future should I feel the need, possibly to the 1Ds when the prices fall, or when my ego inflates, or possible to a camera somewhere between the 10D and the 1Ds.

While I would love to wait for PMA to see the next big thing, my diving season is not over. I get away every 3 months or so to the Caribbean for a long weekends/short week vacations. If I was to wait, I would not be into a new system for another year. My set up now, titan /E20, is just to maddening at times. The biggest issue being at least every other dive it locks up on me at least once during the dive. This is after I sent it back for a new board and an upgrade in springs.

Right or wrong I tend to lean toward the Canon line. Amongst other things, and there are many, I like the feel of them, the glass they offer, and yes the possibility of upgrading in the future. I think that the limitation in wide angle can be overcome, either by the sigma or by a new Canon lens that I am sure will come.

I will be using this top side and I am eyeing the 28-135 IS also. Does anyone know anything about this lens, and if it would work well UW. Is it supported?

Thanks, Mark

P.S. anyone want to buy a titan/E20

Hi Mark,

The 28-135 isn't supported by Subal. You may be able to get either Sea Optics or UW Photo Tech to make a custom zoom gear for you. I know that the Sigma 24-135 works underwater as I was with Woody Mayhew during my trip and he shot the Sigma with his D100.

I was amazed by the versatility I got with my 28-105...especially with the USM as it was great for tracking fish.

Stu

UK-Germany also has a 10D housing available. Their prices are generally about midway between Aquatica and Subal. I have a D60 housing that I'm very happy with. The quality is excellent. The downside is that their international dealer network is not very good. I've found them to be pretty communicative via email but it's a pain to actually buy anything from them. If you are willing to forgo Subal's excellent dealer network, then look at UK-Germany.

Since its open season on unfounded speculation, my prediction is that Canon will announce a 10D replacement in 1st quarter of 2004. It will have the same price point as the 10D, but it will sport a full frame sensor. Maybe we should start betting pool. No money, just bragging rights.

I guess you aren't considering the Titan D100 then.

Thus far, I've heard nothing positive about the Sigma 12-24. Certainly, this is in contrast to the nikkor which has gotten rave reviews. If there is anything I have learned about this industry, it is don't buy anything in anticipation of products to come. Even announced products can turn to vaporware, and speculation is totally useless most of the time. I wouldn't be so certain that Canon will support the 1.6X sensor with superwide lenses. It is equally likely that they hope to bring FF to this class within a few years. Buy a system based on the products you can put your hands on.

If you plan an upgrade to the 1Ds, then the 10D may be for you. However, you have another problem - Seacam is the only decent 1Ds housing, and the most beautiful (and expensive) housings on the planet. But they don't make a 10D housing. You need to buy into a system so you don't need to upgrade ports, extensions, and bulkheads when you upgrade. Remember that you'll spend as much on these items as you will on your lens system, and the resale is less. Canon's rapidfire camera production is a real challenge for housing mfrs, and I wonder if that plays a role in Seacam and others' reluctance to build a housing.

While I believe that the images from my D100 take a little more work post-processing than the Canon or Fuji, it is nice to know that the next generation of Nikons will be very well supported by the major housing mfrs. In hindsight, however, I wish I'd spent more to get a Subal or Nexus housing, so I'd be into the system for life.

My next housing will be a Seacam without question. They have taken a unique approach by housing the high-end digitals first - D1x and 1Ds - while the others spend more time on mid-range cameras with shorter life spans. The housings are amazing, both the silver and the glass. And I'll be buying into a system that will serve me for a longggg time.

The 28-135 IS is a great walking around lens. I have one and it spends the most time on my D60 of all my lenses simply because it's versatile (but slow). It's not a widely used lens for UW, although it might be a good all-around lens. The IS might make it very useful.

If you're looking to get into something now, and you're leaning towards Canon, then it's pretty simple. Pick the 300d or the 10D, and whatever housing manufacturer you think you'd like. Nobody except S&S has a housing for both the 1Ds and the 10D, and even in that case, neither seems to be generally available at this point (1Ds custom made, 10D not sure if it's out yet).

I chose the Canon system for my needs in all around shooting. The Canon range of IS lenses cannot be beat. Most of the Canon lenses are USM. This alone is worth the price of admission. I've no doubt that in terms of image quality, Nikon and Canon are pretty equal from the lens' point of view. I entered digital photography when the 10D was announced as the price point was right for me. While Canon does not have the WA options as Nikon for their DSLRs, I believe it's coming. In the meanwhile, I'll keep shooting with the 15 FE and get great images. Listen to our advice but in the end, Canon, Fuji or Nikon, I don't think you'll go wrong for you underwater imaging needs.

My 2 cents....off the soapbox now....I'm going diving in the Philippines again in 3 weeks!

Stu

As near as the time is now, you may wish to see what Canon brings to the table in February as opposed to housing a D10 today.

but Stephen, even if Canon announced today a killer new DSLR body at the right price point with availability in 30 days, it still wound be 3-6 months (next summer) before there was a housing available for it.

if you were to always wait for the next great camera/housing/whatever you'd never buy one becasue there is always the next great thing right around the corner.

if you want to shoot digital underwater today there are ample really good DSLR bodies and housing on the market today. I would bet that anyone investing in a DSLR rig today would still be using it 2-3 years from now just because the investment is not small and the usable life of these rigs is many, many years when well cared for.

Marty - I don't argue with your logic in general, and have made the same argument often myself. There are terrific camera and housing combinations today, and they will continue to be good performers well into the future. Actually, it is incredible how far digital imaging with housed SLRs has come in so short a time.

I'm just saying that with only 6 weeks to go until this specific PMA, maybe waiting is not such a bad idea. Last PMA did not present earth-shattering technology. And Photo Expo in New York was likewise without drama. But in February there will be significant product introductions that will affect your choices for digital UW imaging with SLRs in 2004.

Canon's plan to introduce 20 new digital cameras in 2004 is indicative of something:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0312/03121801...20newcamera.asp

hmmm... considering two prominent US dealers are saying wait until PMA I wonder what they already know that we mere consumers must wait for

I can hardly wait

Not to detract from the amazing statistic that Ike quotes, but the article specifically says 20 compact digital cameras. 2/3rds of the way through the article it says that D-SLR's are important, too.

Yes PMA is only six weeks away. But the new products and housings are, realistically, close to a year away. My dilemma is that I don’t want to dive with the E 20 any more. It is frustrating! Remember that I tend to go diving every three months. Am sure that all will agree that diving is great, but once you get the bug of photographing your experiences, diving is raised to a new level. Should I go with the 10D, I except that it will be replaced in probably two years time. I would wait for the next big thing at PMA 2005. Maybe by that time the cost of making full frame sensors will come down. I don’t know it is all speculation.

Bottom line is it seems the need to upgrade is now. I vowed that this fall when my rig locked up at “aquarium” in Belize. Waiting would sure be a hard thing to do……..

Buy the housing for your 10D, have some fun and make some great images. But wait ... you said it was your WIFE getting the 10D for Christmas. Oh well, glad to hear she will share.

The 10D will give you great images, now and in the years to come.

Merry Christmas to all our new online friends.

Steve

Questions and ramblings based on my limited understanding of the topic.

I just bought a 10D, 550EX flash, and a 24-70mm F2.8 Canon EF lens.

Considering the lifespan of DSLR's seems to be a couple of years and the lenses work their way up and down the company's lineup should I be particularily worried about my housing?

Considering the lens I bought cost as much as it. I have until mid January to return the thing. Personally I love the feel of it and enjoy the amazing quality I have gotton out of it thus far. The issue of housings from Ikelite not being available is a little disconcerting though.

I just spoke with them today and now they are saying March if at all for housings.

One other question I have is is there anyone with strong objections to the German UK housing with the additional housing or two for the 550EX? The specs of the EX seem a lot more versatile and powerful than a lot of underwater strobes. Again I know next to nothing and possibly less than that about the subject but it would be great to use something I already own vs buying new strobes and arms. I also figured that if one of the 550EX's was connected to the SL6 connector then other ones could be slaved off the wireless of the first one and make for a fairly slick system. Am I nuts?

Thanks in advance.

If you are in the U.S., I suggest that you inquire about UK Germany support before making a decision. From personal experience I found it nearly impossible to get parts in a timely manner. Getting support for me involved shipping the thing to Germany -- which is definitely *not* convenient. Much of the problem involved communication problems with Uwe. He is aware of the problem with American support, and while I have had hints of an effort to rectify the problem, nothing has actually happened.

The Subal housing looks pretty slick, but they do not offer simultaneous depression of the shutter and the * button, which as you all know, is something I gripe about often.

Sea & Sea's transition to TUSA makes me a little nervous. Their 10D housing is more sleek than their older, rounded box housings. If the transition goes well, they may be worth a look.

And there's always Ike, with March availability.

Well, I saw the fit and build of the Sea and Sea housings for the D60/D100....I would not even consider it, but their 10D one is smaller...but who knows what the quality would be like. A friend of mine bought the D100 housing from the S&S West Coast Rep and it had apparently been "tweaked" to make sure it worked. Well, we were on a dive in Anacapa and in 2 out of 3 dives, due to a slight mis-alignment of the base tray, the housing didn't work....

You've heard from others what they said about the UK-Germany. I contacted distributor here in Canada and the guy never even got back to me....well, if he was willing to forgo a sale of that size, I wouldn't bother chasing after him.

I've used (and abused) the Subal 10D housing....and I don't consider the lack of the "*" button access a big deal....I'm used to using a half shutter press to engage AF. I'm at about 40K frames on my 10D...so I've put it to good use. Like I said earlier, 3 housings that were on the trip worked flawlessly, all the controls worked without needing "tweaking" My only gripe is that Subal needs better documentation on the housing and the housing viewfinder did rub a wear mark on my camera body....quickly fixed with a small file.

I've seen the build quality of the Nexus and Seacams and they're great, but they don't have 10D housings. If you perceive you want to shoot a DSLR now, just get it. Even if a new camera comes out....it doesn't stop the 10D...or other current DSLR from taking good pics... Moose Peterson was using this D1H's for the longest time and only gave it up for the new higher res D2h...

My 2 cents...

Stu