Hi,
My husband and I are debating about which digital Canon to get (I'm biased... I work for Canon...) the Rebel or the 10D. My main use for the camera is to get back into SLR photography above water. My husband's use will be both, but he will probably win the fight over who gets to use it U/W! After all, I have my housed S45... which did great in Palau!
We are not professional photographers, nor have any inclination to ever do so... I say that the Rebel is enough and the 10D is overkill for us. However...

His main concern is the use of strobes... he has Sea&Sea strobes (forgot which ones), and has always shot TTL with his Nikonos.
We have heard that with the Rebel, since there is no PC port, he would have to go Manual control on the strobes. Is this true? (He admits that he is lazy and doesn't want the added stress to learn how to do manual control as well as learn how to use the camera!!)

Next question - lenses... he likes to do macro and the debate is between a 50mm Macro and the 100mm Macro. Will the housings available for either camera accomodate the longer lens? I guess the question is are there ports available?

And what are people using for wide angle? With the 1.6x chip factor, a 15mm fisheye is equivalent to a 24mm WA and he feels this isn't wide enough. Any comments?

Thanks for your excellent help in these matters!

None of the Canon DSLRs support TTL flash through the housing, unless connected to housed Canon strobe. Sea & Sea's and Ikelite strobes both have to be shot in manual mode. There have been several really good discussions on this in the past in the group, you should search past threads for more info.

Marty

here's a good one to start with - Canon EOS 10D

Thanks Marty!
I will do some more searching as well...

Hi bsktcase,

I have a 10D which is in the process of getting housed at the moment.

I should point out that your statement "15mm fisheye = 24mm on 1.6x" is incorrect. The focal length of a fisheye lens is not a true indication of how "wide" the lens is. On a 1.6x sensor, the Canon/Sigma 15mm fisheyes work out to be about equivalent to a 17mm lens. Someone at DPreview (www.dpreview.com), look in the Canon lens forum, did a comparison with a film body and a 10D.

You can also double check this by looking at the angle of view figures published by Canon/Sigma. The 15mm fisheyes are 180 deg. diagonal lenses, meaning that across the diagonal of the frame you are getting 180 degrees of view (on a full 35mm frame). Compare this to the Canon 14mm rectilinear lens which only has a 114 deg. angle of view, and you'll see that the focal length is the wrong figure to use

I love my Sigma 15mm fisheye -- it's a great solution for the wide-angle challenged!

Yeang

Thanks Yeang,
Since U/W SLR is totally new to us (me especially) we are totally in the dark!
What you have told me is helpful...
Hopefully I can translate it into something that makes sense to me!
(So many terms I read here and other photog sites is like a foreign language to me!!!)

Just a kernel for thought...

Shooting manual strobes isnt as difficult as most people think it is, especially considering your husband only wants to shoot macro.

Generally speaking, if you choose a shutter speed of say, 1/90, you are then left only with choosing an aperture. He will have to use a shutter speed of at least 1/60 to prevent motion blur or subject blur.

If he is primarily interested in shooting macro, his aperture will be somewhere around (or between) F11 to F22 (this would cover about 80% of macro situations most underwater photographers would encounter).

With this all said as a given, that means that all he really needs to do is spend one dive shooting at different power settings with his strobes and once he finds the "sweet spot", all he will have to do is adjust the settings up a stop or two if it is a dark subject or down a stop if it's a bright subject or a bright background.

I recently shot over 5000 images with a Canon 10D on a dive trip in Indonesia and I am absolutely convinced that anyone with a desire can learn to shoot manual strobes. The digital camera gives you instant feedback so you know immediately if you need to power up a stop.

Just something to think consider.

(And I LOVE my Canon 10D! Please tell them to design a protective cover for the display screen next time!!!)

I just did my first shoot with the 10D (coming from an S40) with a Canon 15mm and 50mm. Trust me, you will find it fisheye enough! Actually, I think I like it better as it is on a 10D compared to no enlargement factor at all.
Don't forget thet with a true 15mm you will have to get very, very close to a subject to be able to get a decent shot. Now with the 1.6x you are way more flexible, at least that's how I feel.
I also shot with the 50mm but found it a bit too short (even with the 1.6x), I'll probably get a 100mm one of these days just for underwater.

You can have a peek at the shots at: www.rud-gr.com (portfolio>scuba).

Rutger

Rud-gr

nice portfolio!!! like the skate and snow pictures....

I am considering the Rebel for my next camera seems like it's the way to go with price and all!!! I am also considering the Minolta Dimage A1

anyone use the Rebel... what are your thoughts ?

The Minolta is NOT an interchangable lens digital SLR camera. Therefore, there is no comparison. :-)

It's like asking "which is better, a car or a motorcycle?" Well, it depends on your needs.

Cheers
James

jamessw- I wasn't asking for a comparison.

i am just considering one them for purchase when I pin point what my needs are.

Still anyone have any comments on the Rebel ?

From the underwater side, shooting mostly macro I think the two are probably a wash. As far as macro lenses, I use both the 50 and 100 mm macro, each has a place but the 50 is far better for fish pictures, true macro (Petersen Cleaning Shrimp for example) is probably better with the 100.
The real issues are topside where I think the 10D is far better.
The ability to shoot in any creative mode with any metering mode with any AF mode is worth every penny of the difference if you are serious about creative topside shooting. If you then add mirror lock-up, flash sync modes and speeds, and other custom functions and I think the difference is surely worth the $300 or so. Particularly if you already have Canon Glass

Bill

The difference is more like at least $500-600, plus you have to buy a more expensive lens right off the bat.

Jack

Agreed, the price difference is substantial. Plus the 300D/Rebel EF-S kit lens is an excellent focal length range for a dive lens, and you can't use it on the 10D.b Your alternatives for a similar focal length lens are the 20-35 (not as wide) or 17-40L (not cheap at around $799 US).

I could live without variable metering modes underwater, and possibly without different AF modes although that is something I've actually changed when using the 10D when diving - (one-shot, which I almost always use above water, was causing me to miss shots underwater so I've been doing some shooting in AF Servo mode lately).

I think the main thing I'd miss though would be the quick control dial on the back for exposure comp and aperture in manual mode. When I used to use a low-end film body simililar to the 300D, I found manual mode was sufficiently cumbersome to use that I never actually used it. So I think if you're planning to shoot in manual mode underwater, the 300D might prove frustrating.

I'm not completely clear on the manual mode operation, but I believe the housings have a locking button so that essentially you end up having a one button way of changing aperture in manual mode.

I'd definitely go with the 10D if it was more cost competitive, but by the time you add up lenses and a more expensive housing, etc it adds up.

I'm waiting until after Christmas now, too many buyers and the prices for both are high.

Jack

I also recently went through this decision process. Which to buy, the 10D or 300D?. I'm looking forward to replacing one of my Nikonos rigs with a housed digital SLR. I ended up buying the 10D. The 300D lacks the ability to lock autofocus. Unless you are using creative modes (themselves limiting) you are forced to use AI Focus. AI Focus defaults to One-Shot mode but switches to AI Servo if it senses movement within the frame. One cannot focus then recompose without panning. Panning is detected as movement. AI Servo is then activated and there goes your focus lock. Depressing the shutter half way will not retain focus lock and there is no under-the-thumb focus lock like on the 10D. This problem is an active topic of discussion on the forums at www.dpreview.com. One workaround is depressing the DOF preview button for focus lock. Due to this button's location I doubt a housing manufacturer will add this capability. It's a bit difficult to recompose a macro shot with DOF preview at F16 anyway. Not enough light. I suspect 300D users will be using manual focus more oftern than 10D users. This might be fine for some. Just something to consider.

Guys,

Funny thing......I'm sitting here playing with my Canon 300D and it locks focus in EVERY "creative mode" (Manual, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority) EXCEPT A-DEP as stated in the manual. No shifting to AI servo. Page 122 of the Canon 300D manual shows all settings in all modes, both 'Basic" and "Creative". If the subject moves my understanding is the AI will track and fire anyway. Popular Photography tests showed the 300D focuses as fast as the EOS-1DS !!! How much more capability do we need?

I also am surprised why every Canon user on this forum thinks having a thumb focus lock versus the trigger pressed 1/2 way and then a quick recompose is better......I tried this with the Nikon D100 and found no real advantage to making focusing and firing a two control process. If I can get a lock on sharks and dolphins with just the trigger, and they're in focus then the trigger works....For macro, lock focus on something the same distance as your subject, hold the shutter release 1/2 way and move your body a minute amount forward or back and pull the trigger. We did this 20 years ago with Canon F1 manual focus cameras. AF just speeds it up

And manual focus with a AF camera underwater? Maybe if you're shooting Pygmy seahorses. With the 300D you can pick an individual point or use the AiAF which picks the closest subject it can achieve focus lock. Worked fine for me during my EOS 300D review in FLA with wide angle. For fish and closer shooting I simply set it to the center point, locked focus, recomposed and fired.

Most whiners on www.dpreview.com EOS 300D forum don't read the manual and play with the camera. Does the 300D have limtations from the 10D? Sure, but for manual mode shooting it'll serve many new underwater dSLRs shooter. As to locking the Av button to adjust aperture, the production Ikelite housing has this solved. I even shoot this way on the surface in "M" mode as you don't have to remove your thumb from the control to focus and fire the camera.

Since 1992 when I got a Nikon N8008s I practiced using AF. Figure out where to quickly put a sensor point to achieve quick lock and it works! Through N90s, N80, Canon EOS 630 and now the EOS 300D I certainly don't see drawbacks. Only more capability with these tools to help make photos.

The Canon 10D and EOS300D are both capable cameras for image making underwater and above. Being computers with lenses simply requires practicing so when the Whale shark gives birth in front of you you're ready to get the shot

YMMV

David Haas
Haas Photography Inc.
dhaas@megsinet.net

http://www.pbase.com/dhaas

Not every user, I switch back and forth between the two methods, and really prefer having it all on the shutter release. Just preference I guess...

Tom

Good to hear from someone else on using just the trigger lock. I know Eric, James and a few others swear by the thumb/trigger method, though.......

Didn't mean to sound like a zealot. But when I hear folks debate stuff that could be simply solved by practice and more time in the water it bugs me......

David Haas
dhaas@megsinet.net

Tom

Good to hear from someone else on using just the trigger lock. I know Eric, James and a few others swear by the thumb/trigger method, though.......

Didn't mean to sound like a zealot. But when I hear folks debate stuff that could be simply solved by practice and more time in the water it bugs me......

David Haas
dhaas@megsinet.net

I did not mean to spark a debate. I have no experience with SLR's underwater, just Nik V's and video. I do use an EOS 10s film camera topside though. I have had the experience topside of fighting the autofocus on an occasion when accidentally left the camera in AI Servo while trying to fine tune focus on a macro shot. I'm now a little afraid of allowing the camera to decide if I should be using AI Servo or One-Shot mode while the camera is set to P, Tv, Av or M. According to the 300D review I read, once focus is locked by depressing the shutter half way the scene is monitored and will break into AI Servo if movement is detected. The detector is more sensitive to movement toward or away from the camera than it is to panning.

What is interesting is that the 300D oweners complaining about the lack of focus mode selectability fall into two categories: 1) Those that can't cause the camera to switch to AI Servo when they want to focus on a moving target 2) Those whose camera's switch to AI Servo when they would like to lock focus on a stationary target.

I have only briefly physically touched a 300D. I did not get a chance to try and fool AI Focus. I suspect it would be fairly difficult to do.

My Nexus doesn't even have one and it never even occurred to me it was missing. Shutter 1/2 press is so natural to me that I didn't even know what people meant by digital shutter lag for the longest time! I thought you were always supposed to prefocus.

Needless to say, you can count me as a shutter 1/2 press user.

Don't fib Craig, when we went diving, you had the Jonah housing set up to lock focus on the AE/AF lock button.

Hit that button, lock focus, then move the housing for minute adjustments. When you get a good focus on the eyes, hit the shutter and BLAM!

I wish I could do that w/ my housing. As I cannot, I use the shutter half press.

Cheers
James

OK, so I set it up to try it out once. Is that so wrong?

James and Craig,

Oh man......

Now if I ever get to dive with James I'm going to have to hide camera/strobe/dive gear set-ups and sneak into the water

Brad, you're correct that Canon's AI servo function would need some significant movement toward or away from the main point of focus to activate it. Phil Askey's review on www.dpreview.com even has a comment about why so many folks are complaining when may just be a good thing! As far as panning such as surface action pics, the EOS 300D can do this in any of the Creative modes or the Sports mode. I've been purposely shooting at ISO 400 around the house and reviewing the images for noise. There does seem to be some CMOS sensor / low digital noise advantage as Andi went into great detail defending the Canon 10D in another discussion. Sometimes I think we poo-poo these pre-programmed modes that manufacturers spend millions of $$$$ to develop without even trying them and learning if they'd work for subsea imaging....

It's great that through this forum we share our trials and tribulations, plus personal choices in shooting techniques. I've picked up some cool things......Hope I've helped some folks, too

David Haas
dhaas@megsinet.net

You're joking, right?

Nope, Im not kidding about trying out pre-programmed modes! I'm not trying to start a heated debate, just an opinion........

Especially for wide angle shooting some could be used thus allowing us to concentrate on composition. With instant digital feedback you can see if the result is at least in the ballpark of what you envisioned.

Another reason is that 99% of underwater shooter are simply duplicating the shots we've been inundated with for years in the dive magazines (Geri Murphy Skin Diver cover shots.) This is not to degrade anyone's shooting, it's just not that challenging after a while. With today's cameras and strobes anyone with a little practice can get reasonably well exposed and in focus photos. Follow the CFWA formula or the medium fish formula, or the pygmy seahorse formula and you'll have your own photo that someone else has already shot.

Truly creative stuff is extremely absent in underwater imaging. If you don't believe me sign on to Getty or Corbis and take a look at some of truly unique photography shot on any subject in the world. Then check out the underwater stuff......We still obsess over tack sharpness, straight lines versus distortion ON PURPOSE (which you can do in a computer now and all sorts of things which haven't changed since 1970.

Getting critter shots will always be a challenge, but for things barely moving through the thick liquid medium and allow us to stop and think and maybe create, we still have a long way to go compared to terrestrial photography.

I myself strive to break out of this "mold" we seem to be in. Trying Pre-prorammed modes on these great new digital tools is one way I think we could create astounding new images, and have fun doing it!

IMHO

David Haas

With all this discussion, I can't wait to finish paying off my 300D....hopefully I'll have it for Xmas (assuming I can skimp on the wife's present....) then I can try all these things I've been missing out on with the Nik V

Maybe I need to play with the 300D a little more. When I was in the shop I went in to see what this focus-lock was going to be like.

I am a half shutter guy and like it a lot.

What I found is in moving forwards or back and side to side the camera would shift into the Servo mode. We even tried once in the centre focus mode and it seemed to still do it.

Maybe I need to go back with nemo and have him move so I can see how the camera react in the focus lock. Or devise a close test of a clownfish movement or ribbon eel to see how it would react.

On the other side of the coin, I am coming from shutter lag so maybe this will be less of an issue as the shutter is so much faster and can catch that moving object fast enough that the shift to servo is a moot point. Anticipate hit the shutter and it reacts fast enough.

I would like to see a few people try it out and I would be curious to hear their comments.

Come on Todd, just convince Blake at Aquatica to make a 10D housing and go with the 10D instead of the 300d.

Well that thought did go through my mind.

How did you know?

Please do!
I would likely be a customer.

-Brad

It's sort of the logical conclusion.

If you've emotionally committed $5000 to a setup based on a Canon, an extra few hundred to get the 10D over the 300d isn't a big upsell. I'd be thinking "Do I want the 300d, or am I going to figure out that I should have gotten the 10d and have to sell my body and housing to upgrade."

If you have a good enough relationship with Aquatica, I'd run it by them. You might be able to get them to do a one off custom based on the 300d housing if it's not too closely matched to the 300d. There's certainly a market for 10d housings.

Isn't it fun to spend someone else's money?

I think the size of the camera may be a major factor though. There is a lot more meat under the 10D's lens mount than under the 300D. So I'm thinking it's a lot easier to shoehorn the 300D into a film camera housing than to do the same w/ the 10D.

That's my thinking at least. I hope I'm wrong.

Cheers
James

James, you are not incorrect.

It does not easily fit into an existing housing so the lag and costs to set one up would be prohibitive.

Yes, I talked to him.

Nevermind...

Having shot the 10D ALOT underwater, I switched focus modes depending on the situation.

Anemone Fish/Blue Ribbon eels: AI Servo
CFWA: One Shot
Pygmy Seahorses: AI Focus (why? the movement induced by breathing can throw of focus, AI Focus just compensates)
Fish Portraits: AI Focus, lock on the target and let the camera track.

I found more issues by not having my shutter speed high enough to keep the anemone fish and blue ribbon eels sharp sometimes. The eels wiggle their heads so much that you need a minimum of 1/125th for tack sharp shots of them.

my 2 cents.

Stu

SO you are saying that the Servo is not a problem for clown fish and Blue Ribbon eels?

That is the situation Herb and I were concerned about. If that is the case then we may have come to a conclusion. I was worried I would be hand cuffed in my focus options because of servo.

And the pygmies worked also....

Correct me if I am wrong but those are all focus options on the 300D correct? (I don't have the brochure in front of me, sorry)

The Canon terminology is a little confusing.

One shot: Nothing fancy. When you half press the shutter, the camera focus and lock and stay locked.

AI Servo: When you half press the shutter, the camera continously track the subject.

AI Focus: The camera decides if it should be in One Shot or AI Servo. This is the only choice for the 300D.

In addition there's a DOF preview button which closes the aperture to your setting instead of the usual wide open. As the name suggest, you get to see the DOF for your aperture choice. Of course the view may be dimmed for small apertures. It has the side effect of locking the focus.

It's encouraging to see Stu's shooting choices. That suggests that the 300D will work just fine underwater.

Hi,

For most underwater shooting, AI Focus is now my preferred way to shoot. I was shooting flight shots of peregrine falcons and other raptors over the summer and AI Focus could nail them from perch to flight so if it can handle the world's fastest bird, a fish is NO problem. =) I believe AI Focus is the primary focus mode on the 300D.

The only time I use One shot now is for CFWA because of having to focus on the close subject, locking focus then recomposing.

You can see some images on this thread:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3956&st=0

The AI Servo works amazingly well with pygmies =)

Stu

Thanks Stu I really appreciate the input based on your use of the focuses it has really helped the decision process.