Hi Gang,

To make a long story short, my Seacam housing and other misc photo gear was stolen from my home on Chirstmas Eve. I was lucky that I'd taken my 1DmkII and some lenses home to the relatives for Christmas, and my Seacam viewfinder wasn't stolen, nor was my Seacam macro port, gears, and ext. rings.

If and when I get an insurance settlement for the gear, I'm planning to jump back in, but I'm wondering, should I get a 5D for underwater use? The new Seacam housing for the 5D looks very nice, and it's considerably smaller than the 1D series setup.

Some pros for the 5D vs the 1DmkII are: more megapixels, smaller size, and presumably lower price.

Some cons for the 5D are: I won't be able to upgrade to a 1DsMKII later and use the same housing. The 5D is not weather sealed, the battery doesn't last as long, and it doesn't shoot 8 frames/second (not as useful underwater I'll admit).

So, if you were me, what would you do?

Cheers
James

Hi James,

If it was me I would go with the 5D just for the size. I like more compact cameras for traveling. I think that if I was buying today I would probably get a D200 instead of the D2x just because of the size. And I must confess that I did think about jumping to the Canon camp and getting a 5D, but boy I love that D2x and wouldn't trade it for anything now, not even a D200. But if I was starting from scratch I would think differently.

Luiz

James, you know you want the 5D for full frame goodness.

You'll have a 180 degree fisheye with the 5D. I'd get the 5D just on that factor.

I would ask yourself what trips you have coming up?

If are doing predominantly macro, I'd go for the 1D Mk2 as it has better AF and the crop will be useful.

If it will be mainly wide angle, then you might want to look at the 5D. Also if you are doing filter photography the 5D is an exciting choice because of its excellent high ISO noise control.

Alex

That's a tough one. I'm lusting after a 5D for the larger viewfinder, but the seacam housings are a fortune and there seems like a much better chance you would be able to use the 1DII housing down the line. (On the other hand, the 5D may not become obselete very quickly.)

I'd echo Luiz's views there. I was going to wait for the D200 when I bought my D2X - the d200 had already been announced. In the end it was Paul Kay's fault for having a Seacam housing on the shelf at exactly the right time, and me having an imminent trip. However, having used small pro bodies in the past because of the size advantages (F100 and EOS 5F), I can honestly say that I'm chuffed to bits with the D2 and don't think I'd go back to a small body now. It's performance and ergonomics (both of the camera and housing) totally outweigh the size and weight disadvantages.

But if I was in your shoes James, I'd think I'd probably go for a used EOS 1DS mk 1 rather than a 1D Mk2 - there must be a lot available at a bargain price

Steve

Hi Guys,

Wow, some great feedback so far. The pixels in the 5D are the same size as the 1DmkII and noise performance is about the same for both cameras. The AF on the 1DmkII is way way better.

For upcoming trips, my next is a wideangle trip - the Wetpixel Bahamas 2006 trip in March.

FF goodness would be great, but I found that I was using between 20mm and 24mm (35mm equivalent) on the trip last year.

Steve, I made the 1DmkII vs 1Ds decision last year and I decided to get the mkII. It's a much newer and faster responding camera, has MUCH better noise performance, and the 1.25x crop isn't that bad. In fact, the 15mm fisheye on the mkII is a GREAT combo.

Please keep the comments coming.

Cheers
James

James,

Bummer! Why would they take your housing and not the ports? I thought we were all only to avoid San Juan, but now Houston, too? Just kidding, as your stituation is something would really tick me off Any of Sarah's Ikelite stuff taken?

In any event, after using a Canon 5D part of last week in Australia I'd say 5D hands down....8 FPS? When seriously will or have you used that? Weatherproofing? You can practically buy 2 Canon 5D bodies for a bit more and have full frame sensor to use your good L or other glass.....

Plus it's not 4# plus weight to haul around like a 1D body.....

YMMV

dhaas

P.S. - Have to spread serial numbers or other info. to web discussion forums so people can be on the look out for your stuff?

Although starting from scratch I think the 5D is a great camera, for your situation I'd give a slight edge to the 1D MkII (I'd probably spend the little extra and get the "N" version for the better LCD screen and ability to save RAW to one card and JPG to the other).

For one thing, you already have another 1D MkII as a backup body in case of flood or malfunction, whereas you'd need to buy 2 5D bodies to have that same redundancy. Second, the weather sealing on the 1DMkII could be a life saver if any salt water gets splashed around at inopportune moments (I recently fried yet ANOTHER little point & shoot camera when it got damp with salt water on a boat! ). Third, as you mentioned, the 1DMkII housing leaves open the opportunity for upgrade to a 1DsMkII with NO housing modifications.

BTW, if/when you DO decide to upgrade to a 1DsMkII, you will already have a backup camera body, but you will also suddenly have a VERY cool system. When you're in situations where you really want a cropped sensor (e.g., super macro), you can use your current 1DMkII. At other times, e.g., when shooting fish or wide angle, you can switch to the 1DsMkII, in both cases with exactly the same housing, lenses and strobes, and only moments to switch back and forth between the two!

James - you've had some tough luck of late with cameras. SOrry to hear about your misfortune.

Personally, I'd find it really tough to revert from a flagship camera, but I'd find it equally difficult to give up my 180 fisheye. You picked a camera system with an obvious upgrade path, so why not stick with it. IMO the most important camera features - metering, AF, VF - should be better on the mkII (correct me if I'm wrong about VF). Everything else for me is secondary - even ultimate image quality which is "good enough" in either case. Stay the course (and secure your new kit).

Besides - could you possibly have a 5D housing in hand by March?

FF is overrated. Let's see. You've already got a 1dmkII. Gee, just buy another housing. You can upgrade later to the 1dskzpsmkXIV, but you're going to need a bigger boat.

mh, not an easy decision.

Only thing I throw in here is the fact, that ~ 1.3 crop (or actually a bit less) is somewhere stuck between two worlds, 1.0 and 1.6.. You can’t use APS-C wideangles and you don’t have the entire field of view of full frame lenses. This is something I don’t expect to change in the future. On the other hand, you like the 15mm fisheye on 1.3 crop and some wideangles too. So maybe the crop factor is just right for you. Resolution is not too important, but I think the difference between those cameras is noticeable somewhere. If you intend to use two bodies (one underwater and one topside), I think the weather sealing is good for topside as your future housing will do the sealing job for underwater already :-) However, sealing is always good. ISO 50 feature is good for underwater as well.

Julian

I don't think anyone would put a 1D Mk II into a housing if a 1Ds Mk II was available. For one thing, the 2x resolution sort of negates the cropped sensor issue. Just crop in software. I speak from experience, as this is exactly my setup. (backup 1D Mk II for a 1Ds Mk II).

James,

Bummer to hear about the loss. Maybe it would be an easier decision if they pinched your camera as well. Only because then you would have clean slate ;-). That is what I have right have a clean slate as I sold all of my old FD system last month. I am SLRless for the first time in over 20 years. As such, I am going through some similar questions.

I have to agree with Bruce with his comments. You already have the body and I get the impression that you are thinking about the 1Ds MII so I would go that route. I did not get the feeling that you are thinking about selling your 1D MII and replacing it with the 5D.

The reason I would go the 5D route is that it is a smaller body and it weighs less. This is important if you are going to shoot topside and travel (e.g. schlep your gear yourself). For me I shoot alot in the slot canyons in Utah which means I am carrying everything and where WA is important as well as low light. In addition, if you want to travel and shoot people having a smaller camera makes it less in their face.

I am currently waiting to see what the 30D is all about. I am guessing that it is going to be the "normal" upgrade (2.5" screen, 1.6x Crop, 10Mp). If it were a 1.3x crop I would go for it as it would be smaller than the 5D and lighter. But then it would compete with the 1D MII as well as the 5D and make the EF-S lens owners pissed so I do not see it happening.

Now one other thing to consider. Your insurance. If you have a replacement policy they will obvisouly replace the 1D MII housing one for one less any deductable. However, if you go the 5D route, they will probably give the value of the 1D MII housing. This value will based on the used market as such you will get less. Of course Seacam might send you an offical replacement 1D MII housing and then let you return in order to upgrade to a 5D housing.

Good luck.

So as not to repeat the above comments I'll just add that I have not seen you shooting anything that would require the 8fps. I know I love the 5fps rate on the 20D but I had uses planned for that. That said you can always pick up a used 20D just for topside fps rate should something change going forward also.

I have to admit there have been times when I really wished I had all 180 degress on that fisheye with the 20D for WA.

Just for fun, here is one of the few examples I could find in my own photos of an underwater shot that needs a high frame rate. Hardly an everyday example.



Alex

Hi guys, thanks for all the really great input so far.

Since it was Sarah's 20D that was stolen, that's what I'm looking at replacing. I just can't see parting w/ my 1DmkII so I'll probably keep it for topsides use, but if the 5D is as good as I think it is, I'll probably sell the mkII and get a second 5D body.

The price differences can be pretty big if I opt for a 1DsmkII:

5D - $3,000 Seacam Housing - $4,500???? (Guessing)
1DsmkII - $6,500 - Seacam Housing - $5,500

That's a $4,500 difference - a nice dive trip there!

I guess a big factor is the insurance company - I don't have a replacement policy, so I can see an involved "claims resolution process" coming up... Any advice appreciated.

James

James,

Insurance companies work differently. I am not an agent so take what I write with a grain of salt as when I had to file a claim it was based on a replacement policy. However, with one item that I had stolen I asked about "taking the money rather replacing it."

They may take your original price and depreciate it. Say 10% for each year. They may also look for the "blue book" value, e.g what is it worth on the open market and give you that. Because there will probably be a replacement for the 20D later this month I would get some prices on used 20D bodies now. Places, like B&H that might quote you top dollar are good sources.

Just some food for thought for everyone on their insurance. Replacement policies are typically not much more than a standard policy. They are pretty easy to find for homeowners but you can also find them as a renter. Definately worth considering.

James - you also have DEPP or DAN right?

Hi Guys,

Yes, I have DEPP, but I only insured my camera and lenses, not the housing. DEPP is very good about replacing gear. I also have a Homeowner's replacement policy for the stuff that was stolen out of my house, but it's much more confusing. They will initially give me a check based on the depreciated value of the stuff stolen. Then, I can go out and buy replacement items. If the items turn out to be more than the depreciated value they paid me to begin with, I get a check for the difference. Thank goodness!!! This is only because I have a special endorsement on my policy (called a 1205 w/ Allstate).

So, I talked to DEPP and I found out that lo and behold, they have modernized a bit, and they do "upgrade" coverage now. For example, rather than them buying me another 20D to replace the one that was stolen, I can send them $1500 and they will send me a 5D instead. This is new information for me and very good news. Used to be that they would just send you a replacement and that's it.

Cheers
James

Hi James,

If it were me, I would keep what I got and get the 1DsII. You might save the $4500 up front going with the 5D but buying any Seacam housing is in my opinon a long term purchase. You already have a backup in the 1DII which is perfect for shooting topside. The image quality on the 1DsII should be good enough to get the most out of your housing for it's life. Also with any luck, Canon will not change the physical size/controls of the sucessor to the 1DsII and your housing will then be an even better value, lasting much longer. Also in your particular situation, you can get the Seacam housing now for the Mark II and be shooting again in short order.

These are the reasons why I went with the 1DII, 1DsII and Seacam combo. It cost two arms and a leg but I know I have a system that I can live with for the long run and for me, get my monies worth out of it. None of this is to knock the 5D but without the weather sealing and focus advantage the Mark II's have and the unknown upgrade path for it's sucsessor to fit in a 5D housing, the Mark II path seems a good one.

Keith

For the sake of UW photographers, I hope that you are right, Keith. But my feeling is that this will change. There has been little to criticise about 1D series. The only criticism that comes up regularly is ergonomics. And I think Canon will redress this in the next upgrade. Plus I think they will put a big screen on the back, which will change the positions of all the buttons etc.

Anyway we might find out at PMA?

Alex

If it were only enlarging the screen, they wouldn't necessarily need to modify the body; the IDMkII "N" has a larger screen, yet seems to have kept all the buttons in the same place. OTOH, I think you're right -- they'll do more than JUST enlarge the screen, including finally switching from NiMH to Lithium Ion battery, which I doubt would be exactly the same size and shape as the current batteries. They'll probably try to shrink and lighten the body at least a little to make it easier to handle (above water)...

Sorry to get off topic a little, but when Canon does update the 1 series body, certainly a lighter/smaller battery, body and revamped menu system is high on most users improvement wish list. I would imagine though that a 1DsIIn would be next, retaining button locations and larger screen.

Keith

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the additional feedback. I've been thinking about the two options a bit and weighing the costs and benefit. I'll probably need to see what my insurance company is going to offer me.

In the meantime, check out this cost list for the two options:

2x Canon 5D's = $6,000
Seacam 5D w/ Superdome = GUESS $6,200
Total: $12,200

Canon 1DsmkII: $7,150 (reasonable retail price)
Canon 1DmkII: $3,500
Seacam 1DmkII Housing w/ Superdome = $7,200
Total: $17,850
Total considering I already own the 1DmkII: $14,350

OK, so the totals are pretty close when you consider that I've already got one of the cameras. But let's not forget Sarah - I need to replace her 20D also - which is another $1,500.

These are astronomical numbers, and I'm not a professional photographer. Just adding it all up scares the $^&& out of me.

James

That is scary when you look at it that way, now stop it!

Another way to look at it would be lets say you are into water skiing/wake boarding you are still at less than 1/2 of what that sport would set you back just for a decent boat! The point here (I always look at the glass half full) is that there are plenty of other non-work related activities that are just as pricey or more so...

I hope your insurance kicks in and makes your decesion easier...

Keith

James,

As Keith states those are some scary numbers for a "hobby" But many hobbyists spend the same on various other endeavors....

Adding all that up your highest expense after camera bodies is the Seacam housing replacement, which makes sense if you still have ports, etc. Based on your surface shots of oil rigs which should be saleable in your neck of the oil industry, I still think the costs might be reasonable.

I DO think you could do everything you're currently doing photo wise with the Canon 5D and lighten your load a bit. Plus have a "newer" body style which will likely be in demand on the used market, too.

Shoot what you like as often as possible as trying to build the perfect "kit" is wasting valuable diving, shooting and editing time.....

YMMV

dhaas

If it helps James, thats more money than all my articles and published photos combined!!!

Get a D70s!!

Get a point and shoot, and buy another house, man

James wow much money

But it depens. how much money you have :-) and how serious you take your uw photo.

I mean on the end the are many OLDBOYS as we there out that have expensive toys without to need them...

I have many friends that have give a left arm to buy a luxuscar that they use to drive to the weekends and if i say that my nikon d70s with housing etc. cost that amount off money they call me crazy...

Maybe is one altenative more. to wait... I mean very very soon is canon comming out with a succesor of D20.. we dont know what it will be but maybe it will be intresting, if not for you maybe for Sarah (and you can use it for time to time :-)

Anyway if you whant it buy it. You are a good photogpapher , bertter that some Pros. Just buy a camra that you need...

I think Canon 5D will drop in the summertime so maybe you can weait for the second housing

Lambis

James .. my 2 cent ... the 1d series can't be beat .. the 5d is nice ... BUT if you can afford the 1d and this insurance deal gives you a reason to do so .. the there is no question .. the 5d will be replaced more often and probably sooner than the 1d series will have any major changes.

I know all of us in the UW world may want smaller and lighter .. but land based pro's aren't that concerned about it .. especially the ones i know who are very much travelling land photo guys and girls ...

I personally would get a 1d mkII over a 1ds mkII even though you already have one .. i just think they are a better camera . the full frame thing doesn't do it for me.

Hey James,

Do you really need a back up camera? That would reduce your bill a great deal. As you say you are not a pro, so while it would be disappointing if a camera went wrong on a trip, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Alex

Knock on wood - I haven't had a camera go bad on a trip yet, but I do believe that a system is not complete without a backup camera. It certainly keeps my mind at ease when I travel!!! If the cost of a backup is prohibitive, I'd go for a less expensive model.

A topside camera is essential for me, and it just makes sense to have the same body for backup purposes. Are there Canon film bodies with the same layout as the 1D?

I had a D100 die on me in Lembeh on day 8 of 15. If I didn't have a backup, my photo trip would have been over. It is an issue of balancing your money with gear and lifestyle, but ever since I got into diving, especially for science, redundancy is essential. There have been MANY times where redundancy has saved my ass, from regulator failures, to cameras failures. In my opinion, you should budget in redundancy if you can swing it because then you have to add in those times when you $10,000 trip is cut short. Now that makes for a really expensive camera setup.

Joe

Hi guys,

I agree that redundancy is important. That's why it makes sense for Sarah and I to both shoot the 5D. We can get a total of two 5D's and another compact setup to use as a backup. If we go w/ one Seacam setup and one Ikelite or Aquatica setup then I already have the ports I need. Plus, it will be nice to have both of us shooting a FF setup and not have to worry about lenses for cropped sensor cameras.

For trips that I'm on by myself, I can bring both of the 5D's. For trips that we're on together, whoever floods their 5D has to use the compact...:-)

Cheers
James

James,

Don't you mean if you flood your housing Sarah gives hers up to you, and if she floods her housing, she gets the inexpensive backup?

Joe, absolutely not, no, never. Do you think I'd say something like that on a public forum!?!?

James

James, I know the dilemma you are going through. Canon’s 1D mk series digitals (both the 8.2 and 16) really deliver the goods, but so does their new 5D, which I have to say is nice camera. Seacam’s housing is (although a little heavy) a beautiful match with the 1D’s.

I am not sure of your urgency for a replacement. Right now, I am waiting on delivery of Subal’s housing for the 5D, which, hopefully will be in before the end of this month. Knowing Seacam, delivery time for their new housing in the states will likely be some time in late April or May.

You want matching cameras? Go with the 5D.

Size, travel etc etc. Especially now with all the airline baggage bullshit.

You don't need the 1Ds series to take a great pic.

Don't let the penis envy crap get in the way. I shoot a D70 and get many pictures published and make money at it.

For me, the 5D size is way better than the D2X or Mark series stuff for travel which is mostly what you do.

Remember Jim Watt, Tim Rock, and I believe Doug Perrine all shoot 20D underwater

Walt (another big selling photog) just said 5D.

Sorry, but the diff in the two to me is a penis envy thing....

Go with the 5D

Mike, why don't you tell us how you really feel? :-)

Cheers
James

I just came back from watching the worst officiated NFL game in history and i am a wee bit under the influence of beer.....



But i still stand by it....

You really feel strongly about this?

Joe

James,

Despite Mike watching American football and the associated accoutrements (!!!!!!) what he says is absolutely true. I'm 99% sure Doug Perrine is already shooting a 5D (in an Ikelite housing and using eTTL2), and likely Watt, Masa and other Canon shooters.

If you and Sarah both migrated to the Canon 5D you could not only lighten your load traveling but be consistent with lens choices versus 1.6X crop and full frame dilemmas.

You could likely sell your Seacam ports and associated gizmos to a dedicated Seacam user and then decide what housing(s) make sense for you and the Missus to use side by side.

In today's world where new technology eclipses the old, usually bringing lighter and smaller gear, this might be the time for you to make that move saving some $$$$ for more frequent travel

YMMV

dhaas

Dave,

You'll have to pry my Seacam viewfinder from my cold dead hands mi amigo.

I'm starting to think that the viewfinder is one of the most, if not THE most important parts of the system. This is after shooting macro and super macro for 3 weeks in Bali.

Cheers
James

James,

Yeah I know how much you like your Seacam stuff.....Can't remember which viewfinder you have though. I guess any small difference is important if you are a tele-macro shooter.....

I'm really surprised to see photos from the Tokyo Dive festival showing metal housing mfgs. building housings for what will surely be an "old style" camera body in less than a year I'd bet. Canon 5D will likely become the "new" standard size...

Might be good for you 1D guys to pick up a second housing body, though.

"Run what you brung"

dhaas

Oh yeah,

Unitl you GET another Seacam housing you should amend your equipment list to read:

"Ports, lens gears, no housing

I disagree, Dave. The 1D body is the right size if you are shooting both landscape and portrait grips. People shoot using the vertical grip all the time, while on land. That's why they sell one for the smaller bodies.

The 1D-series is proven, solid, weather-sealed, has a 100% viewfinder, and a huge, uh... "longer" buffer (that's for you, Mike. ). The 45-pt autofocus has been invaluable when used for tracking fast-moving animals around the viewfinder (e.g. flying birds). I also enjoy not caring about getting splashed or rained upon. If I were shooting 5D/20D, I would be much more paranoid.

There will always be a place for the 1D in Canon's line. And in fact, it's pretty much the only body style that has been stable (from a design perspective for use in underwater housings) since September of 2001, when the 1D came out. The "N" updates will change the back a bit, but at least things were stable for 4.5 years.

I tried to resist posting here; I don't enjoy these camera debates because often, there is no correct answer. Uninformed speculation about what the "pros" shoot doesn't help much, either. Make a decision, go underwater, and shoot!

Thank you Eric at long last someone agreeing with me ..

.. pro bodies have been that way for a while ... because pro's like it that way .. it has function as well as looking cool (although that wasn't exactly how Eric put it)

it's not just an extension for envy Mike

Giles -- if I had know that you wanted validation, I would have posted earlier! hehehe.